TEWWG starts out with a descriptive paragraph discussing the difference between men and women that is reemphasized in other forms through the beginning of the novel. What are some of those ways? Another term that is frequently used is "judgment." Why is judgment so important here, and what does it have to do with Janie's early notions of love?

Sharron Rush:
The differences between men and women are described in direct comparisons as well as observations of reactions to a situation. For example, the opening paragraph flatly states that men view the past and the horizon one way, and women another. On the next page, when we see Janie coming back into town, the men were enjoying her physical beauty and vitality, "saving up with the mind what they lost with the eye." The women focussed on her ragged, dirty clothes and "saved it away for remembrance" as a "weapon against her strength.

Tonya Browning:
Great points Sharron. Dreams seem to play into this delineation. Why do you think "the dream is the truth" for women, and they are "mocked to death" for men (or the Watcher?).

Jennifer Walder:
I think that the notion of judgement that is used in the book is related to the town that Janie lived in. The people of the town seemed to be into gossip and knowing everything that was going on in the lives of the town's people. "They passed notions through their mouth. They sat in judgement," is what the book says as Janie is walking back into town after her time away with Tea Cake. They all seem quite interested if knowing what has been going on since Janie was gone but yet none of them confront her as she walks by. Instead, they all just make their own judgements and opinions about what she has been doing and whether it was good or bad. Pearl Stone even says that "...she could stop and say a few words with us. She acts like we done done something to her...she de one been doin wrong." I think that this goes to show how the people are determined to make judgements of Janie even though she has been gone and they have no idea what has happened to her. Some of the questions that they ask when they see her are things like "...Where she left dat young lad of a boy she run off with......What he done wid all her money?..." I think that this illustrates their judgements of Janie. They have no idea if Tea Cake ran off with her money. They are just passing judgements because of their gossiping tendencies and their true desire to know what really happened.

Kenneth Direkly:
Well, when the men were watching Janie walk by, and looking at her "grape fruits," they stayed on the porch just watching. It seems that the author is trying to show that men just sit and watch their fantasies/dreams while women get up and go after it. Pheoby got up from the porch and went over to Janie. This resembles the opening paragraph that states men watch their dreams from a distance while women live their dream, the truth. Pheoby went over to Janie to find out what really happened, eventhough later she will probably gossip about it. But the men, and some women, stayed on the porch to to gossip about what they thought, not what they knew. The word judgement is used to describe the eyes of the dead. The author portrays women as making judgement on life because they find out the truth and from there take action. Without the truth a judgement passed is biased and wrong. Maybe this is one of the ways the author tries to show that men are wrong, they don't seek the truth, while women are right. I think Janie frees herself from her early loves by seeking the truth because, "the truth shall set you free."

Garrett T. Crouch:
Zora's descriptive writing depicts differences in men and women in many ways. In the first four chapters we have the gender elements described early in the first chapter. Also, Nanny talks about her past when she was a slave with her yellow haired baby. Her point of her story was to get Janie to understand that not only is hard being black but it is hard being a black woman. Judgment implies that religion influenced many southerners lives. It is also important to understand that people married back in the old days for different reasons. As in Janie's case she married Logan to please her grandmother, what her grandmother called "protection". Janie was not happy and realized she did not like Logan after living with him. She had time to judge him.

Cynthia Hill:
The expression about the women being the mules and the part about men working the mules seems to correlate to one another--the women are the mules and the men work them. It is ironic that in Janie's first marriage to Mr. Killicks he leaves for the day to go purchase another mule. This mule was meant for Janie so she could plow the potatoes. This is the day that Janie meets Joe Starks whom she later runs off with. The fact that Mr. Killicks wants Janie to help plow by way of a mule is odd since she is the mule, symbolicaly speaking. The men only use mules to do work, but it is the women that do the work thus the women are the mules.

Jennifer Walder:
I think that Sharron has a good point when she mentions the men and women's different reactions to Janie's return. The men were more judgemental of her appearance alone while the women were judging her appearance and then going further and judging what she has been doing and who she has been with.

Tonya Browning:
I like what you pointed out in terms of judgment Kenneth. It seems as if Janie is beyond that now, though she had to come to some kind of assessment of her husband. Also, don't forget that judgment plays an important spiritual role like Garrett mentions.

Cynthia Hill:
Sharron is right in that the men only see her outside but the women what to know everything about her inside and out. The men see her but the women want to know her.

Garrett T. Crouch:
Yeah, Jennifer good point. Small towns have that problem with gossip. The first chapter totally illustrates that.

Corey Snyder:
The women and the men don't interact except in judgement situations. The two sexes have two completely different societies. Phoeby just sits in the back yard talking with Janie instead of going home to eat with her husband, talking about him like he's a child. The women all sit on the porch doing their own thing until their husbands JUDGE them to be a bunch of cackling hens and kick them out or tell them to shut up. I think that because the women are being held accountable to the judgement of their husbands, they can themselves feel in the role of the judge rather than thte judged is by sitting around gossiping about other people in the community. Gossiping about someone is a way of exercising power over them, an important ability for "the weaker sex" in this society.

Maria Fuentes:
The book starts out with describing how men can go out and search for their dream and society won't think bad of them. Women on the other hand are supposed to be there waiting for things and, "act and do things accordingly," so that peolpe will acept them. I guess one of the ways I thought that they emphazsized this was like in the beginning when all the women are around Janie's friend is making dinner for her husband, this is what women are supposed to do. Then Janie's mother had her without being married, so people thought bad of her but they didn't think bad about her father running out on them. Another thing I think that the way they mention the mules and men, the women are the mules and the men do with them what they want becasue women are not supposed to have any say so. The big difference so far, I think is how that Killick character can choose who he wants to marry but Janie can't becasue he's got land,money, and all that, so it would look bad of her not to marry him (This would not be acting accordingly). The judgement is mentioned a lot because everyone on the town gossiped so much that they judged everyone especially on Janie because she ran off with Tea Cake. The town has all made a judgement against Janie because she didn't act lady like and didn't care what others said about her.

Kristin Keene:
One of the main differences that stuck out in the begining of the novel was between men and women, but ecspecially between races. The bossman was gone, so the skins felt powerful and human. This is were judgment comes up for the first time. Your are introduced to it quickly, for they are lords of it. I guess it is this nightly power trip that facilitates some of the differences between the men and the women. The men for example who sit around on the porch gossiping about people like its their business ironicly have less a sense of humanity than the woman. If someone (like Janie) walks by and does not speak, they automatically ridicule her and assume the worst. They degrade her. The exact same thing that the men are on their nightly power trip escaping - unfair degradation. The women seem more harmless and real. It seems as if their accusations would never go as far or be taken as seriously as the guys.

Tonya Browning:
Yeah, Cynthia. The women want to know her story. It comes down to her story or her "dream."

Kenneth Direkly:
Nice point Cynthia. I think it is clear that Janie was a "mule" in her first marriage. Lucky for her that she was able to pass judgement on the relationship and that it didn't last long.

Maria Fuentes:
Jennifer:
It's so true, small towns are full of nothing but gossip!! I hate hick towns like that!

Tonya Browning: I like Corey's comments about judgment as an outlet for power. However, I think Janie wants interaction between men and women on different terms and that's what her quest is in this book. Don't forget the quest motif is an old one, and one that men and women both share (though most quests are about men). Do you think Janie's quest is that for "true" love?

Kamal Bhuiyan:
Hurston describes her opinion about men and women through Janie's voice. She says that every man has a dream, but some make that dream come true by suffering and strugling where as some men just hopes and they can never make it happen. On the other hand women can do whatever they want to do because they are not dreamy like men. Their dream is the reality. As a result they undrstand the consequences and know how to face it. As Hurston said "Then they act and do things accordingly." By the word judgment, she meant that every person would have to bear the consequences of his/her deeds. This word is also kind of relief for her because she thinks whoever cheated or abused her will get punished one day.

Stacie Wright:
Janie's early notions of love were based on her expectations and the expectations her Grandmother had for her. She thought that love came with marriage since the married people that she was in contact with appeared to be in love. Her grandmother judges marriage as the best way to make sure that Janie is taken care of when she is gone. Janie is at first reluctant to get married but accepts it when her grandmother explains her reasoning. Janie makes assumptions about married life that are never fulfilled which sets the stage for a life spent looking for love. Her initial judgement or marriage as the way to find love is the driving force behind her actions. Janie does not even realize that she may be wrong in believing that love comes through marriage after her first marriage fails to provide her with a loving companion. She proceeds to marry another man who seems to be just as much of a stranger as the first but with maybe a bit more charm and a few promises of a better life. If it weren't for the towns judgement of girls who don't ger married and stay that way, Janie may never have been forced into a marriage that was not supported by thel love taht would keep it together. Her grandmother was not driven by this judgement of what young girls should do as much as she was driven by her need to see that Janie was going to be taken care of but either way, the people of the town's opinons were influential in Janie's decision to marry although they weren;t strong enoug to keep herin an unfulfilling marriage. Janie's willingness to be influenced by this judgment was lost when she realized that her judgement of marriage was wrong too.

Kristin Keene:
I agree with Kenneth's statment about how the men watch their dreams and the the women live them. It seems funny to me that they make themselves sound so king of the world and they are to afraid to get off the porch and do something. What are they afraid of, being shot down, getting embarrased. Why do all of these men have to put on these power trips every evening?

Kris Desormeaux:
The use of the word "judgment" in the novel kind of says that Janie and other women of the time wanted to know everything about everyone and their little secrets so they can make a judgement of them. This is stated when they talk about Sam stating that everyone wants to be good so they can be there on Judgement day to hear everyone's little secrets to gossip about. The differences between men and women in the book are shown in various ways throught the book thus far. We see on the first page that The author thinks that men and women have different views of the past and the future/the horizon. It also shows that the women in the novel are only interested in gossip and making fun of other women, such as Janie when returning to town. The men However concentrate on her beauty and not her faults, as the women do. They basically have different views of everything in general as I stated earlier.

Sharron Rush:
The judgement of the family, friends and the community becomes a strong force in Janie's life from the beginning. Her early childhood is without self-consciousness but her struggle begins with her discovery of the little dark girl in the photograph. Judgements about who she is and what she may expect from life seem to have been made for her and the reader can see, by her grown-up appearance at the start of the book, that she has defied these expectations. This creates further judgement, but it seems as though Janie finds it easier to deal with these than with a life unfulfilled.

Kenneth Direkly:
VERY nice Corey. The women on the porch seem to only have control over gossip. They can start it, modify it, etc. I think that when gossip is started it can become very powerful by making small lies or pulling actions out of context. The women on the porch remind me of modern day tabloids.

Garrett T. Crouch:
Cynthia, I think men are the workers and women get worked, but it can go the other way in Mr. Killick's case. Janie basically worked him when she met Joe and decided to hit the road with her feeling of "newness".

Maria Fuentes:
Sharron:
I agree with you that the men just check her out physically, but the women are a lot more critical of her apperance and of her lifestlye. I think that the women are also more critical because they envy Janie for beign free spirited and doing what she wants to do.

Tonya Browning:
Great comment Kris. I was hoping someone would point out that quote. The men say that women only go to church so they can be there on Judgment day to hear everyone's secrets.

Jennifer Walder:
I think that part of what Kenneth had to say about judgement is right but yet he says that it is a man/woman thing. Phoeby was really the only one who had the nerve to go see what was going on with Janie. The other women and men were just content in passing their judgements of Janie. Of course, when Phoeby made the initiative, the other women did show their interest in finding out the truth. Lulu evens says that Phoeby can go and come back later and let everyone know what had happened. What would have happened if none of the women had taken initiative???

Audra Leifeste:
In Chapter 1, every man's wish is described as being on ships at a distance, some dreams coming true and some not. They are never out of sight though. The author describes the women as liveing their dreams because their dreams are the truth. Now does that mean that women's dreams are always reality or that realities are their dreams? It seems to me here that Hurston was saying that women are more realistic and do not try to pursue something that is out of grasp. That is what they have a tendency to forget. The men see their "ship at a distance" when they noticed Janie coming into town. They all seemed to be stimulated and dreaming at what they envisioned about this beautiful figure of a woman coming into town. In this same scene, Pearl opened her big mouth and laughed which I think demonstrates one of those drastic differences between men and women. What were the women thinking at that point? Were they jealous of Jamie? Or did Pearl start laughing because the image that the men were seeing was highly unrealistic to her and the other women? Maybe they thought they knew that what was under those clothes were no grape fruits! Or maybe this was just helping to add to the women's list of gossip!

Kris Desormeaux:
Good point Sharon about the judgements being made for Janie. I think that is true and does play a big part in the way Janie thinks and acks in the novel.

Tonya Browning:
Envy *is* an important aspect of their "judgment" Connie. It seems Janie is weary of it in some way.

Corey Snyder:
I got the coolest feeling yesterday. There is this guy at work that I really can't stand. He's a real bigwig, but a real creep, too. So, as I was slacking in the cubicle next to his I heard him on the phone and found out some great dirt on him about his ex-wife and some pictures and stuff like that. So I went over to a friend's cubicle and immediately started to tell her about all this news, very quietly, of course. But as I was talking, the Creep walked by and stopped in to ask how our project was going. We said fine, he walked away, then our head almost exploded from trying to contain all that smugness. It was great. So for like a half an hour we were superior to this guy.

Kesha Fomby:
The difference between women and men appears throughout the beginning of the novel. One of the major instances is when Joe Starks appears. He is from a distant place and is lead through town following a dream. "Ships at a distance has every man's dream on board." this quote can apply to Joe because his dream is also at a distance. He is traveling to another place to help establish it and to prosper from it. The beginning of the novel says this about women: "The dream is the truth. Then they act and do things accordingly." When Janie is pursued by Joe she imagines that she can leave and have a wonderful life without Mr. Killick. She had imagined a new life and she wasn't afraid to pursue it with or without Joe. "Even if Joe was not there for her, the change would do her some good." Also the fact that Janie considered herself Joe's wife also shows how a woman's dream becomes true. Being that a divorce from Mr. Killick was never mentioned, I am lead to believe that Janie was not actually Joe's wife.

Tonya Browning:
Yeah, superiority is a big factor Corey. Janie had left and then returned . . . what is it about a prophet in his own hometown?

Billy Lynch:
She speaks of men whose lives are centered around their wishes. They all wait until their 'ship full of wishes' comes in. Some get what they want and others turn away in resignation when their ship fails to come in. Women mold their memories around what they desire the truth to be. Memories that don't fit, aren't remembered and those that do become their truth. We see that as the poeple judged her coming back to the town, the men see her as a "ship of wishes coming in." They admire her physical beauty and wanted her. The women saw her as they wanted her to be. They had hoped that she had been taken advantage of by the man she ran off with against their advice. They saw her overalls and ragged clothes and the part of her that fit what they wanted her to be. This supported their 'truth' and so that is what they remembered. Janie complains to her friend about everyone judging her. She felt that everything would be laid bare in the final day of judgement and they would, themselves, be the ones who needed the judging.

Corey Snyder:
Kenneth, good tabloid thing I hadn't thought about that. But you know, who reads tabloids? Not the glamorous, not the powerful, but the habitual watchers of Days of Our Lives while they do laundry, or perform some peon task. Knowledge is power.

Tonya Browning:
Definite irony there Trey. Judgment Day may not turn out as the gossipers plan.

Garrett T. Crouch:
A thing to consider is the fact that people during this time period had to voice their opinion and never escaped judgment because of it. Especially in a town like Eatonville where an all black community existed. These people were strong and proud and definitely performed something similar to a screening of strangers or new residents. This is just a way of being comfortable with your neighbors and was necessary.

Cynthia Hill:
Passing judgement upon people seems to be the women of this town's pasttime. Even when Janie was a child in school, one of her classmates, Mayrella, used to tease and make fun of Janie about her father. Mayrella talked about how Janie's dad was hunted by bloodhounds but Mayrella left out some parts. "Dey didn't tell about how he wuz seen tryin' tuh...marry her. Naw dey didn't talk dat part of it atall." All the gossip is about the bad and not the good parts of Janie's life. Eventhough Mayrella was at a young age, it was no different than all the women sitting on the porch talking about Janie when she came back. They all talked about the worst instead of what good could have happened between her and Teacake.

Jennifer Walder:
In response to Tonya's response, I am not sure if Janie's quest is for true love because I'm not really sure if she knows what it is. Knowing background information on Hurston though, you would think that she was in search of true love. I think that her quest is more to find what love is. She didn't really define love in her relationship with Logan so I think that is why she was so quick to run of with Jody when he came into the picture. She probably thought if she couldn't find love with Logan then why should she stick around.

Tonya Browning:
Well Garrett, I do believe that gossip transcends race. But it says a lot that the women could sit around and gossip--that they had opportunity to do so in their own community.

Sharron Rush:
I understood the metaphor of the "ships at a distance" to make a distinction between men whose dreams are fulfilled, those whose ship will "come in with the tide" and those unfortunate others whose ships remain forever "on the horizon." Women's expectations were so constrained by what was allowed to them, that they commonly found that the only truth they could realize was the dream itself.

Kris Desormeaux:
Kesha, good comparison b/w the beginning of the novel and the appearance of Joe Starks. I did not catch that when reading the novel and now I can see what Hurston meant at the beginning.

Stacie Wright:
I strongly agree with Kenneth's comments regarding how men and women act out their dreams. I had never thought about how the actions of the characters reflected what Hurston was trying to describe. I think that there are men and women that now take on roles that are described here as gender specific but that it has taken years for society to accept this spilt from that norm that is described here.

Kenneth Direkly:
Well Jennifer, I guess then judgement would not be a gender quality but a personal quality. Pheoby showed the initiative and thats how trends/ideas get started. Someone does something no one else would do, then others follow. With all the judgement ties to religion, maybe Pheoby can be looked upon as a prophet. She does something to find the truth and then later shares it, or at least she intends to.

Maria Fuentes:
Kris:
I agree with you about the judgment and how the women want to know all the secrets, but I don't think that all the women are interested in doing is gossiping. I think that they want to know about Janie's life because even though they are acting accordingly or the way they are supposed to I think more of them would like to take risks like Janie and search for the truth they have always been looking for.

Kamal:
I totally agree with you that men always have that tendency to think of women as physical beings. When would they ever think that women are mental being too?

Audra Leifeste:
Sharron, I think you hit the nail on the head when you said the judgement of the family, friends and community becomes a major force in Janie's life. It sounds like she is always having some sort of struggle. A fulfilled life dealing with judgement is much more important, too than a life unfulfilled.

Cynthia Hill:
Kenneth is so right about his observation in men just watch their dreams but women go after them. Phoeby had to know so she went to Janie. Phoeby let her fantansies "come in with the tide" while the men sat on the porch and let their dreams stay forever on the horizon."

Kesha Fomby:
I agree with Maria, but I think that the woman want to know more about her to get a feel of who she really is. They seem to feel like she thinks she is better than they are. It almost appears that they are threatened by her and they need to know bad things about her so that she doesn't appear better than them. We all have secretes and the fact that Janie's are not (really) known makes her secretes more interesting than others.

Kimberly Williams:
The term judgement is so important in this novel because it seems to be the foundation that separates the men from the women in the very beginning. As Janie returns to town she is immediately and silently swooned by all the men sitting on their front porches. "The men noticed her firm buttocks like she had grapefruits in her pockets; then her pugnacious breasts trying to bore holes in her shirt". The women of the town were very vocal with each other about Janie's return and judged her with envy and malice. Instead of her beauty,these women chose to judge her by her faded shirt and muddy overalls. It's ironic that one of these ladies said " she aint even worth talkin' after". Yet they still find themselves engrossed in conversation about her. They also want Phoebe to talk to Janie and then come back to give them "the scoop" about where Janie has been and why is she back. Another case of judgement is when Janie reflects back to her adolescent marriage to Logan Killicks. She married him just to make her Nanny happy with her judgement in men even though she did not love the man. Her grandmother emphasized how important it is to marry a decent man who will take care of her. According to Nanny, Loogan Killicks would be "protection" for Janie because he owned land, was a church member, and a decent citizen in the community.